Episode 106: The Gig vs Subscription Economy: What it means for Australian Businesses
8th April, 2025
In this conversation, Trudi Cowan and Sarah Eifermann explore the gig economy, discussing its definition, the flexibility it offers, the challenges and risks associated with gig work, legal and tax implications, and predictions for its future. They highlight the impact of technology on the gig economy and the importance of understanding the nuances of gig work compared to traditional employment. In this conversation, Trudi Cowan and Sarah Eifermann explore the evolution of business models towards subscription-based services, discussing the implications of this shift for both businesses and consumers. They analyse the impact of COVID-19 on subscription services, the importance of customer engagement, and the challenges of subscription fatigue. The discussion also touches on the cost of doing business in a subscription economy and the future of these models in the marketplace.
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DISCLAIMER- The information and material in this podcast, and supplementary and associated information available, is for general information only. It should not be taken as constituting professional advice from the podcast owners, and we recommend you seek independent suitable advice that is specific to your unique circumstances.
Podcast Transcript Available Here
Sarah Eifermann (00:10.158)
Hello everybody. Welcome again to the Financial Fofu podcast. Crazy times. We're in March at the moment moving through and we've got the amazing Lynne Walton from Access Intell with us today. Hello Lynne, how are you? This is her first podcast so she's a little bit nervous but she is an absolute wealth and powerhouse of knowledge on pretty much everything.
Lynne (00:25.463)
I'm good, thanks.
Sarah Eifermann (00:37.368)
PPSR related. we hear the word thrown around a lot. But Lynne, you've had a big background in insolvency work, haven't you? Can you tell our audience a little bit about what that is, what that means?
Lynne (00:50.301)
Yes, of course. Morning, Sarah, morning Trudi and morning everyone. I began my career back in the early 90s in Glasgow. My first job was with Ernst & Young and I straight out of uni went to insolvency. So
Sarah Eifermann (01:09.838)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (01:15.543)
Okay.
Lynne (01:17.685)
Back in those days, insolvency was in the cupboard at the bottom of the building. But nowadays, it's changed dramatically. so I was there for five years. And then my husband...
Sarah Eifermann (01:25.838)
You
Sarah Eifermann (01:31.32)
Trudi worked at Deloitte for a while too, so she understands. You're in a line partnership today.
Trudi Cowan (01:33.079)
Yes.
Sarah Eifermann (01:41.39)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (01:45.333)
was transferred to, he worked in, he was in the British Navy and he was transferred to the Australian Navy for a secondment for two and a half years. So we were sent to Perth. Now he was sent there to teach the Australian submariners how to escape from their submarines. So I transferred with Ernst & Young.
And I was only there a couple of months and they decided to close the insolvency department. So I left and joined PPB. Still doing insolvency, did insolvency pretty much my whole career. So
Trudi Cowan (02:22.497)
no, timing!
Sarah Eifermann (02:24.462)
they do.
Sarah Eifermann (02:35.384)
So insolvency for those that don't realise is what helping companies to wind up or liquidate if they can't pay their dues.
Lynne (02:42.779)
Yes, yes. So it is, I mean, you've heard these terms bandied about liquidation, receivership, voluntary administration. It's when a company cannot pay its bills as they fall due. They are, they are, you know, technically insolvent. And insolvency practitioners would
Sarah Eifermann (02:50.858)
Mm. Yeah.
administration.
Sarah Eifermann (03:07.512)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (03:11.561)
go into that business and sell it if it was salvageable. And, you know, as a liquidator, they would act for the creditors as a receiver. They would act for the secured creditor who was generally the bank. But we don't do a lot of receiverships nowadays. It's mainly liquidations, voluntary administrations and the new SBRs.
Sarah Eifermann (03:16.727)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (03:39.864)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (03:40.757)
small business restructuring insolvency arrangements and we can talk about them a bit later.
Sarah Eifermann (03:48.334)
Yeah, sorry to interrupt your amazing story there. So Perth lost your job. As a side note, I think my father worked on the Collins class submarines that your husband then taught to the Australian Navy because he was one of the electrical engineers. So that's a very small world because he was based out of Melbourne and then was in Adelaide and Perth. He used to travel in the 90s for that stuff. that's he may have met him at some point. That's even funnier.
Trudi Cowan (04:01.498)
Wow, almost.
Lynne (04:04.82)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (04:13.581)
Hahaha
Lynne (04:13.757)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (04:15.97)
But okay, so after that, you were, then went to, sorry, did you say not BDO? Who else were you with before that? PPP. Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (04:21.904)
KTV.
Lynne (04:21.909)
went back to the UK and I joined the Bank of Scotland but I didn't, I was only there for a year, I did not like that at all, I preferred in Sovensey and then I went back to KPMG. So again, I was there for five years. I then left there when I had my first child and started a small business. I've
Sarah Eifermann (04:27.896)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (04:33.571)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (04:50.761)
done it all in dental supply. And then I moved to Australia in 2008 and I went back to insolvency then. Now you will recall 2008 was the GFC so I was offered every job that I went.
Trudi Cowan (04:52.037)
Mmm.
Trudi Cowan (05:09.51)
Yep, cheers,
Sarah Eifermann (05:10.584)
See? Yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Trudi Cowan (05:14.374)
would have been. was definitely an in-demand position at that point in time.
Lynne (05:18.321)
Yeah, yeah, so I joined BDO in Brisbane then. Yeah, and I was there for two years and EPSA came into force and I thought that is my ticket out of here. I think in my earlier insolvency days, I loved it because I was quite junior. I was in
running businesses, trading them, selling them, preserving the business and then moving on to the next one. Whereas when I got to BDO I was quite senior and it was
Sarah Eifermann (06:01.006)
managing people rather than doing what you love that technical specialty versus management part. We talk about that a lot here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So often people move away from the core of what they love because as their business grows and they move into management roles or they get promoted and it's not all people think it, you know, it doesn't crack up to be what we think it's going to be if it takes you away from where you join your passion is. Correct.
Lynne (06:03.305)
Yeah, yeah, now people will end money.
Trudi Cowan (06:08.07)
Good day.
Trudi Cowan (06:24.74)
Not everybody's suited to managing people.
Lynne (06:25.493)
Yeah. And also in the earlier days of insolvency, there was always something to work with. You know, there was an order book or there were debtors or they owned their equipment, you know, or they owned the building. A lot of businesses, you know, continue to trade when, you know, they should have closed down.
Sarah Eifermann (06:43.598)
Yeah, I had assets, yeah.
Lynne (06:52.733)
a few years before and they just keep financing assets. So there's often nothing to worry work with as an insolvency practitioner. So I was a bit disillusioned with the profession and what good we could do. And so when PPSA came in, I thought, wow, that is I'm able to help suppliers.
Sarah Eifermann (07:01.549)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (07:06.136)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (07:11.128)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (07:20.728)
So what's PPSA for our listeners that may not know?
Lynne (07:24.237)
So that is the Personal Properties Securities Act and it was introduced in 2012 and its purpose was to streamline the process and the laws surrounding the taking and the granting of security within Australia.
Sarah Eifermann (07:28.664)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (07:45.986)
And that's for non-property assets, correct? Yeah.
Lynne (07:49.681)
Yes, yes. So personal property is a bit misleading, the term. What it actually means is anything that is not real property or water rights, so anything that is movable, tangible, doesn't actually... Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (08:08.696)
It's not bolted down, it's PPSA related.
Trudi Cowan (08:10.662)
Yeah. What's some examples of some of the things you commonly see? Are we talking sort of large equipment and cars, that sort of thing? Is that sort of the more common?
Lynne (08:19.893)
Yes, so there are 24 collateral classes under PPSA. So there's financial property, there's intellectual property, there's aircraft, boats, motor vehicles, and then pretty much everything else. there's lots and it's pretty much everything that is not land or water rights.
Sarah Eifermann (08:47.662)
Yeah, it's a huge, huge range of different assets.
Lynne (08:51.221)
Thanks.
Trudi Cowan (08:52.134)
Yeah, I didn't actually realize you could do it over IP as well, so that's interesting.
Lynne (08:55.347)
Yes, yeah. So prior to PPSA, the banks were the only ones that really had to register security. So, you know, they would register on the ASIC register of company charges or on REVs where they financed a motor vehicle.
Sarah Eifermann (09:10.872)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (09:17.486)
I was going to say there was definitely another form of PPSR when I started in 2003 in the industry, because I remember talking about it then and having education on it and what that meant, especially if you're looking at car loans and stuff like that. But yeah, it was usually lenders were the only ones that ever registered a financial interest.
Lynne (09:22.078)
Yes.
Lynne (09:36.853)
So they were the commonly known ones, but there were another 38 different registers that all held securities, things like mineral rights registers and things like that. They were all mothballed in 2012 and transferred onto an online government register.
Sarah Eifermann (09:44.43)
Mmm.
Sarah Eifermann (09:50.392)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lynne (10:06.409)
which is available for anyone to go and search and anyone to process registrations to and that's at ppsr.gov.au. But the really significant part of PPSA for commercial businesses is that two transactions that we were all used to working with prior to PPSA
became security interests and became registerable as a result of this legislation. And the first one is where a business sells goods on credit subject to retention of title. So it's very common. In fact, I've never seen a set of terms and conditions in my whole insolvency. Well, since I've come here to Australia.
that don't contain a retention of title clause. So it's you know, a paraphrase to say, although we deliver these goods to you, they don't actually become yours until you pay us the money for them. That's
Sarah Eifermann (11:20.546)
Yeah, yeah. So our trade is that's your materials. That's the biggest example, I think, is you put materials on site, your terms should say they are yours until you pay us for them.
Trudi Cowan (11:27.75)
Mm.
Lynne (11:34.441)
Yes, absolutely. Now that becomes a security interest under this new legislation which needs to be registered. Yes. Now people go, does that mean I have to register every invoice? No, it doesn't. It is one registration. It costs six dollars, the government fee.
Trudi Cowan (11:34.672)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (11:45.006)
Registered. Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (11:46.212)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (12:01.157)
Mm.
Lynne (12:01.171)
and it lasts for seven years and it covers all supplies you make within that seven years through that customer.
Trudi Cowan (12:10.411)
Six dollars is hardly an excuse not to do it, is there?
Lynne (12:12.91)
Absolutely.
Sarah Eifermann (12:13.998)
So if I run a business and I have say, I'm a plumber and I do that. So I register my business as a supplier of credit for $6 and it lasts for seven years. And then any customers that I work with are covered under that for that six bucks.
Lynne (12:23.615)
with.
Yes.
Lynne (12:30.867)
Yes, yes. Well, six bucks for each customer. So if you've got 10 customers, then it costs you $60, lasts for seven years. And then that means that you have security over what you've supplied.
Sarah Eifermann (12:35.672)
So yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (12:48.59)
So every person with it's not each invoice. It's each customer for six dollars. It's a benefit
Trudi Cowan (12:53.414)
customer. So you might not do it for a small job, but if you're working on a big construction job, then it's certainly worthwhile registering that customer.
Lynne (12:54.537)
Yes.
Lynne (13:00.565)
That's it.
Sarah Eifermann (13:00.91)
like it would if you have like if I have a client that wants you know $500 worth of stuff and then they want two and a half thousand dollars worth of stuff and then suddenly the next jobs seven and a half thousand dollars if I had just registered them at the start for six bucks even though it was a $500 job like we hear it all the time Trudi oh it's only $500 but it's the principle of it
Trudi Cowan (13:11.526)
Yeah.
Lynne (13:21.255)
Yeah, and it's, you know, it's knowing that no matter what happens, you're not having to monitor that customer to see what your exposure is on an ongoing basis. You know, you do that registration and then you can sleep at night. Now, not only have you got security in what you deliver under this new legislation, when your customer sells it on,
Trudi Cowan (13:21.478)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (13:31.832)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (13:36.494)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (13:46.453)
you've got security in the book debt that's created from the sale. So what that means is that even though he's sold it, you can still get paid because you stand in his shoes and are entitled to the money if he goes bust. In between him getting paid, yes, yeah, you become a secured creditor with the highest possible priority. So you come first.
Sarah Eifermann (14:05.358)
Which is secure creditor? Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (14:14.294)
Mm-hmm. So potentially even before the lenders.
Lynne (14:19.483)
Yes, even before the insolvency practitioner.
Sarah Eifermann (14:23.808)
Hmm. Or the ATO then in that instance, because usually they've been trading for a while before they get themselves into trouble and you've already secured your interest first. Yeah, that's huge knowledge for anyone listening today as to how do you protect your business with the simplest cost of six bucks, which just add it into your costings when you're invoicing your clients, build it into your job prices. It's six bucks. Like it's not a lot of money.
Trudi Cowan (14:24.426)
Hahaha
Lynne (14:27.445)
Thanks.
Trudi Cowan (14:27.888)
Yes.
Lynne (14:33.929)
Yes. Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (14:52.438)
and also then you notify them that you're now a secured creditor.
Trudi Cowan (14:56.634)
Now, can you do this registration only against your business customers or can you do it for your consumer customers as well?
Lynne (14:56.764)
So you can do it against consumer customers, but I think what we have to look at is the benefit of it. So you mentioned plumbers. If plumbers are doing a job for consumers, then they go in, they do the work and they leave. And it's not going to be an ongoing arrangement.
Sarah Eifermann (15:26.638)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (15:33.019)
and to do it against them, it wouldn't really benefit them because, you know, it would...
Sarah Eifermann (15:41.526)
Unless it was a bigger job, like if it's a large job, like if it's a one call out to fix a leaky tap is one thing, but a whole bathroom renovation.
Lynne (15:45.119)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah. But also with plumbers, a lot of the value in a job is in actually putting plates in and that sort of thing. So they become part of the fabric of the building and it's hard to get them back. They create value. So if you're selling it to one person and then they're selling it on to someone else, then that's where it's valuable because you've got
Sarah Eifermann (15:58.594)
Labor. Yeah. Yeah.
Lynne (16:16.501)
security and the debt. But if you're selling it to the landowner or the homeowner, you know, there are other mechanisms that you'd be best using rather than PPSA to secure your rights. Now, see when you're talking about those plumbers, so they install the pipes and all that sort of thing in the jobs. It may not, if that's all they're doing,
then it may not be worth it registering for the...
Trudi Cowan (16:48.599)
and
Sarah Eifermann (16:48.844)
That's where their actual terms and conditions should be protecting them. Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (16:52.827)
Yeah.
Lynne (16:53.001)
Yes, yeah, yeah. But where they're then installing the bathroom suite or the air conditioning unit, which can be removed if they don't get paid, that's where the value lies. So it protects everything that they supply, but there are some things that it's worth getting back and other things that it's not worth getting back.
Sarah Eifermann (17:02.424)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (17:07.534)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (17:18.68)
Yeah, that's like that. Do remember the video going around two years ago of the tradie that hadn't been paid and he went and took the roof tiles off and collected his roof tiles? He was like, haven't paid me, they're mine. My contract says they're mine. I'm taking them back. Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (17:19.214)
with it.
Trudi Cowan (17:30.966)
Yeah.
Lynne (17:31.734)
Yeah, I would do. But you know, when someone goes bust, the insolvency practitioner has to deal with that property. So you have to think to yourself, he doesn't want a building that doesn't have roof tiles in it. He wants to sit down with me and do a deal.
Sarah Eifermann (17:48.238)
Yeah. Yeah. That only works if you're a secure creditor and you've spent your $6 though.
Lynne (17:52.565)
Yes, absolutely, that's right.
Sarah Eifermann (17:59.094)
Are you listening everyone?
Lynne (18:02.901)
Hmm.
Trudi Cowan (18:03.846)
So how do we actually go about registering our security interests then? I presume there's some sort of website or form or something we need to fill in?
Lynne (18:10.677)
Yes, so you can go on to the government register and do it yourself. It's pretty complicated. It's pretty complicated to set up. You have to set up yourself as the supplier, as a secured party, and you have to get that right. Then you have to create...
the types of registration that you're going to need. the legislation and the variables in a registration are so broad because they're trying to cater for all of those different types of security and different types of collateral. So it's really...
Sarah Eifermann (18:42.039)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (19:04.565)
If you don't know what you're doing, then you would be getting your registration wrong. can guarantee you.
Sarah Eifermann (19:09.944)
So Lin has a product, I believe, that does this for people. So we may as well talk about that. So what is that called and how does it work?
Lynne (19:18.325)
So it's Access Intell and the website is accessintell.com and it's a PPSR platform. So we do everything for you. So we make sure that your terms and conditions create the required security interest and then...
Trudi Cowan (19:40.326)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (19:41.838)
So often people think they need a lawyer to do their terms and conditions. Are you saying that you can do that for them or do they bring their terms and conditions to you and you check?
Lynne (19:51.057)
Yes, they bring them to us. We are not lawyers, so we don't dispense legal advice, but we can, know, having been an insolvency practitioner, can identify a good set versus a bad set. we look for specific things that are PPSA related that you need within your terms and conditions to be able to enforce your rights when the time comes.
Sarah Eifermann (20:04.96)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lynne (20:18.325)
We'll tell you whether they are good enough. If not, then we can refer you to lawyers that we know are good at this sort of thing, because it's a bit like, you know, going to your GP and, you know, being referred to a knee specialist if you've got an elbow issue or, yeah, so we can help you with that sort of thing. And then we create
Sarah Eifermann (20:40.928)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (20:41.413)
Yes.
Lynne (20:46.919)
your secured party, we create your profiles to give you the highest possible priority under PPSA and then we process your registrations for you. So there's lots of things that you can get wrong and banks and financiers are renowned for getting things wrong as we mean, Sarah.
Sarah Eifermann (21:09.88)
Yes, they are. Actually, a funny story, I had a contact maybe six or 12 months ago from it was a Facebook group and they had put up a question about PPSR and the bank had registered a financial interest against their machine, but it wasn't they'd already paid. That either wasn't their debt or they paid it out and had it been removed. And I'm like, well, cross check the VIN number to the PPSR. And when she did, it was not the right
VIN number anyway, I was like, you can sell that machine because there's no registration. As long as you've paid out your debt to make sure you don't have ongoing debt and they don't chase. Her dad was sick and dying of cancer and she's like, we just need this sorted. And I'm like, the VIN number is not registered with a registration against it. In fact, she did a search on a zoom with me and it came up clear or whatever it says. And I was like, like, you've got your payout letter, you've paid them.
Trudi Cowan (21:42.232)
I'm not.
Trudi Cowan (22:01.36)
of such a simple error that could have a big impact.
Lynne (22:04.415)
Yeah. So imagine that financier that had registered that incorrectly. Imagine it's a seven million dollar aircraft that they've funded. Because they've got the serial number wrong, they have no security. So PPSA says that if a search of the register using a serial number does not reveal the registration, then
Sarah Eifermann (22:11.595)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (22:15.758)
Mm-hmm.
Lynne (22:33.663)
the registration is seriously misleading and then they say a seriously misleading registration is ineffective.
Sarah Eifermann (22:37.122)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (22:44.12)
Yeah, this was like $160,000 machine, but you can see how important it is then to get it done and do it right. And if you're not an expert in it, somebody else to do it? Hello?
Trudi Cowan (22:44.208)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (22:52.196)
Yeah, yeah, the details, so important to get the details right.
Lynne (22:54.377)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (22:57.294)
So how does it work? I'm on your website and I can see you've got a couple of different levels of subscription you could say. There's a pay as you go one, a small one, a medium one. So the small one is $59 a month and it says up to 100 registrations held. a business would pay, I would pay $59 a month and up to 100 customers of mine would be registered by you for the correct interest for that month. Yeah, so it's cheap everybody, it's very cheap.
Lynne (23:21.151)
Yes,
Sarah Eifermann (23:25.142) In fact, too cheap, potentially, for the security that it actually brings back. So as part of that registration or that subscription, you've obviously checked their terms and conditions, right? Trudi Cowan (23:27.236) Hahaha Lynne (23:37.077) Yes, we make sure everything's right for businesses that are coming on and then we continuously monitor those businesses to make sure that they're still legal entities and that they're still operational and we flag them in Scotland or anything like that. Sarah Eifermann (23:40.162) Yep. Sarah Eifermann (23:54.862) client. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the other option then for pay as you go for people that might not be quite there yet to committing to a subscription. It says pay per registration. So do they pay you a service fee for that at all? Or is it just a slightly higher than a $6 registration fee? Yeah. Yeah. So is it like $10? Is that because we'll get asked, they'll start DMing me asking me these questions. Lynne (24:11.285) And it's just slightly higher than, yeah. Lynne (24:24.117) So it depends on the volumes, but it's no more than $40. So if someone's got, you know, five registrations, then it's no more than $40, but it comes down depending on how many you're doing. Sarah Eifermann (24:27.149) Okay? Trudi Cowan (24:43.568) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (24:44.13) Yeah, so have a good look at your business. Think about how many new customers you bring on every month and then do your sums as to whether or not, you know, if you're pretty much over five registrations a month, you should be on the small subscription for Access, Intell's Access PPSR offering because it makes sense. Come on people. It's such a common thing. And I'm sure we could talk about this all day and I am conscious of time. Lynne (25:00.073) you Lynne (25:05.813) Absolutely, yeah. Sarah Eifermann (25:14.008) But if anyone has any questions on this specifically, can they reach out to you, Lynne, or to your office? Yeah. Yeah, fantastic. Because I'm sure you'll start getting calls coming in because people like we will absolutely share constantly Trudi and I have these conversations about PPSR, secured creditors. Lynne (25:18.451) Yes, absolutely. Sarah Eifermann (25:34.548) where you are in the pool if that business goes broke, especially even if you're dry hiring out machinery or a range of other things that happens or leaving materials on site or the builder goes bust. Like all of these things that then directly impact your business, your cash flow, your ability to trade, but become problematic. So you did mention earlier very briefly about SBR and Lynne (25:48.937) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (26:03.424) I'm constantly having this conversation with people because they have tax debt. They get told by an external administrator that or an insolvency practitioner that we can sort out your tax debt. We don't have to liquidate your company. We can do an SBR, small business restructure. Is it restructure? Rollover? Restructure. Sorry, there's another one that's a small business rollover, which is a tax one. Trudi's like, yes. Trudi Cowan (26:24.198) with traction. Sarah Eifermann (26:31.97) So small business restructure and then they come and try and get lending and I can't give them lending because it shows up on their credit file of their company that effectively they've appointed an external administrator, whether it be seven days, 21 days, 35 days. And now that credit position as in character has been demonstrated to the lender that you were trading insolvently at some point and you can't manage your finances and your credit character. So one of the five C's of lending. The character of who you are as a business owner shows that you can't meet your commitments when they fooled you. So we're not giving you any more money and come back to us in five years time because that's how long it's going to take to come off your credit score. So I even hear brokers say, but that's not true. It's just a restructure within the same business. Can you tell us exactly what it is? Lynne (27:11.647) year. Lynne (27:19.913) Yes, of course. So it is an application to an insolvency, to a restructuring practitioner for protection from creditors while the business restructures its debt basically. Now what we're seeing Trudi Cowan (27:20.326) system. Lynne (27:48.469) out in the market is a lot of businesses that have got tax debt. Now, we have a PPSR product, but we also have a monitoring product. Sarah Eifermann (28:01.442) I did see that as well. Can you tell us that's, is that like a credit to watch? Like if you were to give it a name that people might know, it's effectively similar to that. Yeah. Yeah. Lynne (28:06.566) Yay. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But you don't have to buy individual credit reports. Yes. So what we do is we take all of your customers and we continuously monitor them on an ongoing basis. So we check to see what court actions they're involved in, whether their construction license is still valid, if they're in hospitality. Sarah Eifermann (28:17.56) files. Yeah. Lynne (28:36.777) whether their liquor license is still valid. And we also get data from the ATO directly to Access Intell with reportable, you know, businesses that owe the ATO more than $100,000 and they haven't made an arrangement. So that is available within our platform as well. Sarah Eifermann (28:37.038) and Sarah Eifermann (28:43.297) Mm-hmm. interesting. Sarah Eifermann (28:56.375) Yeah, okay. Sarah Eifermann (29:00.622) And again, $45 a month for 100 customers monitored. It is a very cheap insurance policy for your business. Lynne (29:05.29) Yes. Trudi Cowan (29:08.314) Very cheap deal. Lynne (29:09.109) Yeah. So what we're seeing is those tax debts, the ATO have got a number of ways that they can enforce their rights and so they should. This is good for you and I. They are owed over $80 billion at the moment and that has gone up by double. Sarah Eifermann (29:38.158) Mm-hmm. Trudi Cowan (29:38.406) Yeah. Lynne (29:38.613) 2019, that money should be available for us for hospitals for schools and that's a thing. Now, they have a lot of mechanisms nowadays and one of them is a director's penalty notice. So what that does is the ATO can a notice on a director of a company who's got an ATO tax debt. Sarah Eifermann (29:44.974) Yeah. Yep. Trudi Cowan (29:45.806) Yeah, I agree. Lynne (30:04.967) And that director must take action within 21 days to either appoint an insolvency practitioner, pay the debt or make an arrangement. A lot of them have made multiple arrangements, so that is no longer open to them in some cases. So what we're finding is that in order to avoid that company debt jumping onto the personal becoming a personal liability of that director, which is what happens if they take no action within the 21 days. Then we're finding that SBR administrators are being appointed and there's lots of them. Now, what then happens is that an offer is made to creditors by the company. Trudi Cowan (30:39.376) Yep. Lynne (31:04.371) and that may be 15 cents in the dollar. Now, voting then occurs among the creditors, but that voting is, it's carried with 50 % in value. Now, if the ATO has a large debt and the other creditors have small debts, then the ATO basically makes the decision as to whether that goes through or not. Sarah Eifermann (31:31.234) Yeah. Yeah. Lynne (31:33.845) What we've been seeing is that they've, know, historically in the last year or so, they've been approving most of them, but they've become a bit more discerning recently. But what then happens is once the business pays the 15 cents in the dollar to all of the creditors, the business is handed back to the directors and it continues on to trade. Sarah Eifermann (32:02.744) So they stay as a director, but they do lose control for a period of time, however long it takes to do that voting, correct? Lynne (32:11.829) There's no personal liability, no so they don't, so it's different from the other insolvencies. So a voluntary administration, the voluntary administrator takes personal liability. Sarah Eifermann (32:27.714) Yeah, no. So what I mean is that I've been told that they maintain control of the company. So it's right. And I say, yeah, you do, but you still have an appointed. Lynne (32:32.393) Yes, they meant 20 and- Trudi Cowan (32:33.062) Yes. Lynne (32:37.813) from your creditors. Trudi Cowan (32:38.436) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (32:40.588) Yeah, and you're appointing someone to arrange that protection. Right. And so that's the bit that the lender said. And so for anybody listening, if anyone is talking to you about SBIR, please ask them to get proper advice about it, not just from the appointed administrator, because often they are told your personal credit score will be fine. It won't show because you've got protection. But it does show up on a linked directorship search. Lynne (32:43.657) Yes, yes. Lynne (33:09.237) Mmm. Sarah Eifermann (33:09.57) that your company was put into administration effectively. And then that affects your ability to get a home loan, to refinance any business debts, to potentially even get a piece of machinery that you need to continue trading. And it can have serious ongoing impacts. That's not a reason to not do it. It might be still the right thing for your business, but please have the knowledge before you go and do it and then find out later. no, now I can't get finance or I can't do anything. Can't refinance my house. Trudi Cowan (33:13.51) Hmm. Lynne (33:35.677) Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (33:38.624) Yeah, it's a challenge. Lynne (33:41.661) Yeah, absolutely. Our clients are telling us that a lot of these SBIRs come completely out of the blue. the customer has been paying on the button, on the nose for years while they've been trading. then because of a director's penalty notice, they are forced to do something. Sarah Eifermann (33:49.966) Hmm. Trudi Cowan (34:04.475) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (34:07.756) Yeah. And so. Trudi Cowan (34:08.358) Unfortunately, a lot of businesses were using the ATO effectively as a bank. They're paying everybody else and just not paying the ATO and that's now sort of coming home. Lynne (34:15.668) Yes. Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (34:18.83) It's a tough one. We do see it a lot and we often talk our previous episodes about cash flow forecasting and break even and having an awareness of what bills are due. And we always say like if you're not paying, if you're paying tax, you're making money. But tax and super, they're statutory requirements of being in business and they need to be paid on time every time. I hate paying tax. Trudi knows this all the time. Like I'm the first person to tell you I hate paying tax. Lynne (34:42.43) Yeah. Trudi Cowan (34:42.618) Yeah. Lynne (34:47.091) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (34:47.214) but it is the bill that gets paid. Like there is no ifs or buts. You pay your tax bill and you pay it when it's due. And if you can't pay it when it's due, you need to start talking to them because just ignoring them does you no favors either as we're now experiencing right with these SBRs. So, I mean, I think we could talk to you all day, Lynne, and I'm conscious that it's already been 35 minutes. Time flies, doesn't it? Do you have any quick tips for people in business? Trudi Cowan (34:57.646) No, it certainly doesn't. Trudi Cowan (35:08.738) it really does. Sarah Eifermann (35:13.538) with either SBR or PPSR of things that they should do. I mean, other than getting onto your platform as quickly as they can for their own benefit. Are there other things that you consider or? Lynne (35:25.045) I think it comes down to understanding who your customers are. If you've got five, then you you can, you know, you pretty much know them. They've been trading with you for a long time. If you've got 50, that's a lot harder. And so, and we can monitor those customers for you. Even if you've got, you know, 50,000, we can monitor them. Trudi Cowan (35:30.022) you Lynne (35:52.373) and we categorize them into levels of risk, depending on what's going on with that business. So it's really easy to see what's happening within your customers. We've got one client who've only got seven customers, but they're civil construction. Sarah Eifermann (35:58.84) Mm-hmm. Sarah Eifermann (36:15.79) I was about to say, if they're large customers and you lose one of those, it's a big chunk of your income gone. Lynne (36:21.373) Each one owes them three million a month or four million a month. So for them, they must make sure that their customers are stable because, you know, the risk is massive. Trudi Cowan (36:26.979) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (36:35.48) Yeah. I have one last question for people that do personal services based businesses. like Trudi and I personal services, pardon? Like you say, yeah, such as ourselves. We would have less likely because our stuff is based on our IP. So do we have options to register against our clients as well? Or is it really only for those that provide materials as a property? Trudi Cowan (36:43.718) So I'll cast that in. So it's such as as-nose. Lynne (37:03.637) So we have an onboarding product as well, where we can assess those businesses as you bring them on and then continuously monitor them. So it's giving you an understanding of whether you're going to get paid or not by those businesses. you know, we cater for service businesses as well. But when it comes to PPSR, Sarah Eifermann (37:23.8) Yeah. Lynne (37:33.653) You've already done the work. It's like giving someone a massage and then maybe said personal services. Sarah Eifermann (37:41.603) Yeah. Not those kind of personal services, Lynne. Lynne (37:48.467) It's like putting someone on the and then trying to take it back. can't... Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (37:49.176) The ones that the ATO define. Trudi Cowan (37:53.965) Professional player was just there, maybe that was a better word. Sarah Eifermann (37:59.074) Yeah. So you would have to do it upfront is what I'm saying. So you bring on a new customer, you onboard the customer. It would be part of your onboarding process. And then is it based on your IP, i.e. your time that's been provided becomes the product or is it? Lynne (38:14.773) So you can register IP, but they have to grant you security. It's about granting security. And it's really not worth it for items like that. Sarah Eifermann (38:18.914) Mm-hmm. Sarah Eifermann (38:25.42) Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (38:31.886) So that's where your Access approved product is better, which again, small subscription is $85 a month. it's so you just really, you're onboarding, you're checking everything about that business to see that they're trading solvently and so that they will actually just pay you. Yes. Yeah. Good way to put it. Lynne (38:34.367) Yeah. Lynne (38:44.437) Yeah. It's a bit like PPSA for retailers as well. If you're selling to retailers, then let's say for instance, you're a supplier of wine and you sell to a bottle shop and you're selling, you know, four boxes of wine every week. That's not really worth it because they're going to be sold and the money is going to be in the till. Trudi Cowan (38:45.082) selecting the right client in the first place. Sarah Eifermann (38:51.832) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (39:02.209) Mm-hmm. Lynne (39:14.261) So your security isn't good. Whereas if you're selling to a wine distributor or a chain of bottle shops, it is going to be absolutely worth spending that $6 because you're have stock there and you're going to have book debts. Sarah Eifermann (39:14.327) Mm-hmm. Sarah Eifermann (39:26.307) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (39:31.853) Yeah. Sarah Eifermann (39:36.814) Trudi, do you have any final questions? Again, I could talk to Lynne all day. I think it's fantastic information. Trudi Cowan (39:40.294) was gonna say, there's so many things that I could ask, but they're probably all very long and detailed questions. I think it's just probably important for our listeners to go and check out PPSR and find out a bit more about it if they're not familiar with it and start implementing it if it's relevant in their business. Lynne (39:52.319) We're We haven't even touched on leasing rental or payment of assets. Sarah Eifermann (39:59.928) Mm-hmm. Trudi Cowan (40:00.857) Mmm. It's so much to it. Sarah Eifermann (40:02.488) No. Yeah, they were on our list, but you know, we would just have to invite you back, Lynne. That's how we fix that. So thank you so much for your time today. Lots of information. We'll put the link to your website in our episode description so everyone can pop across and check it out. And realistically, if they've got any questions, I should just really call through your office and speak to someone. Yeah. Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Well, until next time, everybody. Lynne (40:06.143) Maybe we can have another session. Lynne (40:24.081) Yes. Yes. Sarah Eifermann (40:29.359) Thank you. What have we got coming up next week, Trudi? We have got the gig economy. Trudi Cowan (40:35.174) I was going to say, yep, you took a second to think then gig economy and how that's all working in Australia at the moment. Sarah Eifermann (40:41.73) Yeah, crazy times. But thank you so much. Until next week, Financial Throwthrough Podcast. Cheers, everybody. Trudi Cowan (40:47.718) Bye!