Episode 51: Who do you get advice from?
April 18, 2022
If you talk to any advisor they will have a story about a client who came to them wanting to follow some advice they have received at the pub/bbq/park. While you might receive some advice that is appropriate, if you are not talking to a qualified advisor they may not have taken into account all of your specific circumstances that are so relevant to any piece of advice (whether accounting, legal, finance etc.). Sarah and Trudi in this episode not only talk about why they believe obtaining advice from the right place is so important, but also why it is so important to obtain timely advice. To demonstrate, they walk through various examples of when things have gone right for their clients and where they could have improved with earlier/better advice. This is an interesting episode that may make you re-think how and when you obtain professional advice.
Podcast Transcript Available Here
Duration: 29:33
Sarah Eifermann: Welcome, everyone to today's episode of Financial FOFU. We are talking today about advice and where do you go to get advice from. Trudi Cowan: That's right and it's a bit of an extension on last week's topic about protecting your business and getting the right advice for your business is really going to help and protect your business as well. Sarah Eifermann: Sure does. Sarah Eifermann: Where do you go to get advice from Trudi? I mean, look guys Trudi Cowan: I mean, more often than you [crosstalk 00:29], If I were you? If you can't help me, you tell me. Sarah Eifermann: This is what I was about to say, right? Often you and I get a lot of questions from people about who do I call for this? And who do I call for that? And, Sarah, do you know an insurance broker or do you know an accountant. I have spent a lot of time building quality advisors in my sphere of influence, and in my pool of referrals because I don't believe that you can do business without them. I use them personally and I also pass on their details to other people. Why is this so important, though? Why is this topic so important? Because I mean, I could just talk to my friends about this, right? Trudi Cowan: You could talk to your friends about this but have I spent a lot of years in education, training, and practicing in that area? Sarah Eifermann: Okay, but what about like the people you met at the pub, or at the barbecue that seemed to have an opinion on everything, and they know lots about like, lots Trudi Cowan: Well, they might know lots about lots, but again they haven't spent the time with training and education. They probably haven't spent the time to sit down with you and understand your particular [crosstalk 1:36] that's the key, isn't it? Sarah Eifermann: The unique circumstances and look as a broker, we always say this is that your circumstances are so individual and whilst there's a billion different lenders and a billion different policies out there. You have to literally put the peg in the right hole for your unique individual needs, unless your circumstances are identical to the person next to you, you're not going to be able to get the same loan, borrow the same loan amount, buy the same property type or anything like that because let's be honest, no one's circumstances are identical. Trudi Cowan: No. A really good example is that you go into lots of business Facebook groups and there's always someone asking you, should I switch to a company? The answer really is, it depends because it does depend on a whole bunch of factors. I would sit down with you and ask about your income for the business, your other income, and what's your spouse earning? What are the plans for the business? There's a whole bunch of things we would look at. Sarah Eifermann: Especially if you're in a service-based business, whether it's personal services, income, or psi Trudi Cowan: And how you're taxed? Sarah Eifermann: Yes because that impacts what you can do within a company and whether you should just be a sole trader, you know, all of those things are so important, so I suppose it's. We've sort of touched on at the end of last week about pub advice or barbecue advice and there is a place for it because sometimes you can learn something from these people. Sometimes they've got really good advisors themselves. Trudi Cowan: They can also give you some great questions to go back to your advisors and ask. But having said that, I'm not sure that I would be taking their word as gospel. Right, because they're not the ones that are working in the industry, they're probably not up to date with the latest rules and regulations and the latest advice around how things should be done, and they're probably also basing it a lot on what they do and what works for them and their personal circumstances which can be very different to your personal circumstances. Trudi Cowan: I guess a recent example for me is I had a lady ring me up and she was given an offer for a new job. The employer was basically saying you can come on as an employee, or you can come on as a contractor and she had all these people telling her to set up a company and go as a contractor because you'll pay less tax. When I sat down and had a chat with her, and we worked through her personal circumstances, I said no. You can set up a company and be a contractor if you like, but you're gonna pay exactly the same amount of tax that way as if you will go on as an employee just because of how the tax was going to work for her personal circumstances. And she sort of said to me, Well, does that mean that everyone that I spoke to is doing it wrong? And I said, it's possible but it's also possible that they have other sources of income, and they have other things going on in that company. Trudi Cowan: Unique circumstances that then change the way, the tax works for them. So yes, listen to these people but with a grain of salt, and with a question to go back to your advisors as is this going to work for me and my personal circumstances? Or it's not something that's going to work for me? And for this particular client, she goes well there's no point then I'll just go on as an employee and keep it simple. Sarah Eifermann: Yes, for her. Trudi Cowan: It was good that she came and got the advice, rather than having spent a lot of money setting up a company that she didn't really need. Sarah Eifermann: So I suppose the thing is, is that when should you seek advice? How do you know that you need advice? Trudi Cowan: A rule of thumb is if you're about to go and spend some money on buying an asset, buying a business, or setting up a business, substantial change, that's a good time to go and get some advice. On the flip side, you're about to sell something, especially if that's something is going to have some tax implications for you. Sarah Eifermann: They may not know that it's going to have some tax, maybe go with we are going to sell something. Trudi Cowan: I will just have clients ring me and say I'm going to sell this car. Sarah Eifermann: I was just about to say, I learned the hard way about selling a car years ago. Trudi Cowan: Out of the business entity. Are there any problems with that? And I can quickly look at their books and go, yes because we've written the value off to zero for tax, so anything that are you receiving as cash is going to be taxed? Is income[crosstalk 05:56], going to be taxed Sarah Eifermann: That's a problem I had because I didn't ask my accountants before I sold my asset. Trudi Cowan: Sometimes it literally is a five-minute conversation, and why would you not pick up the phone to your advisor and have that five-minute conversation? Sarah Eifermann: Right, I suppose that depends on the type of advisor that you've got. The relationship that you've chosen to take. We've talked about this before, whether there's any cost so perhaps you are better off with a package that is a monthly fee, that includes some extra time than just paying a set fee for a return once a year. Because you can pick up the phone and have these conversations and build a relationship with the adviser as opposed to being transactional. Trudi Cowan: Maybe every advisor is different but I would rather my client, pick up the phone for that five-minute conversation to say, I'm thinking of selling this asset, or buying this asset, is there going to be something I need to be aware of? And I can say, yes we need to have a half an hour conversation, it's going to cost you this amount of money. And the client can then decide whether they want to spend that money and have that conversation. Right, I would be also trying to find an advisor that would at least have that five-minute conversation with you so at least put up either a Yes, a red flag, we need to converse about this, or go for it that shouldn't cause you any issues. Sarah Eifermann: One thing to get to the bottom of, is if your advisor doesn't take your calls, doesn't return your calls maybe it's time to find a new one. I have a lot of people, it's a common issue, unfortunately. I know it can be a cause of friction between brokers and accountants but we've our clients. If brokers need something, and the client needs something for their financial statements, and their accountant is difficult about it or doesn't take their calls and that's impacting their ability to do other things maybe it's time for a new advisor that actually understands your circumstances and wants to work with you. Sarah Eifermann: Sure, there may be a cost to that and that's okay because time is money. We're all in business. We're all entitled to charge for our time. But if you don't have a relationship, or your accountant doesn't get back to you, or you can't, they don't talk to your other advisors. They're not, what's the word, slipped my mind, like diligent about returning calls and things like that, maybe they're not the right advisor for your needs and your business needs. Trudi Cowan: As you said, I work with a lot of different advisors, if I know I've got a client going for finance, I tell them to give the broker my details. If the broker wants to contact me directly, that's fine sometimes the conversation is quicker and easier between the two of us because we both know what we're trying to achieve. There's not always a need for the client to be in on that conversation. Sarah Eifermann: I have accountants that will ring me and asked me about the details of a loan agreement, or what did they do with this asset? When they purchased this asset, was it done as a high purchase? Was it done as a commercial loan? Is it in the book? Is it not in the book? Is there anything we need to consider here? And similarly when I refer for business advice, often they'll come back to me and say, Alright Sarah, what was the purpose of why you referred for the business advice? What are you thinking based on your innate knowledge of this business? And where their goals are and what do they want to achieve? How do we then factor those into the structure to make sure that they're getting the best of what they need? Trudi Cowan: I also regularly have financial advisors that are being given some advice that they know is going to have some sort of tax implication. The Advisor literally just flicked me the advice saying, have a look on this page, you probably need to know this for the return or have a look on this page. I've told the client to come and discuss it with you because it's not something that they're allowed to advise about. You want advisors that are going to have that relationship with each other because it actually makes your life easier as well, as a client. Sarah Eifermann: Completely. Trudi Cowan: We also, today wanted to run through a few circumstances that we've dealt with where either the client did the right thing and came and got advice, or maybe we kind of wish that they had come a little earlier. Sarah Eifermann: Yes, everybody out there. I am sick of pulling rabbits out of a hat at the 11th fricking hour to sort you out because you didn't come in the first place. Trudi Cowan: So really Sarah about three months before you want to buy this.[inaudible 10:04] [crosstalk 10:05] Dampster. Yes, give her some time. Sarah Eifermann: It's true though, right? Unfortunately, some people that are technical specialists, you may not want to pay their fee, or you may not believe that what they're saying is accurate, and you go with somebody else that's telling you, it's easier. We can just do it like this and often, it doesn't work that way. It falls apart then everybody gets stressed. Trudi Cowan: Give us an example then, what's the term? Sarah Eifermann: Off the top of my head? I've had a couple of things with, like other self-managed Superfund loans, you can do that, no, I can do it that finance for you. Then I've said no, you can't. You don't have the right income within the fund from your As a self-employed person, you haven't been paying yourself, the SDSA contributions that you would have gotten if you were an employee, and therefore we don't have what's called serviceability within the fund, because in a self-managed Superfund, we just use the super contribution and the rent we don't have to include anything else. Sarah Eifermann: As long as there's a corporate trustee, not an individual trustee but you haven't been paying yourself rent, so I can't use proposed or projected income, because you haven't been paying yourself super. Other brokers will say yes, yes. Then they go and sign a contract, and then they can't get finance. Then they're ringing me going, what do I do now? You need private funding, it's going to cost you 15% until you pay yourself super contributions for 12 months, and then you can refinance, as that has happened. Trudi Cowan: I'm sure it's happened more than once. Sarah Eifermann: Same with business finance, or car finance, like I've had similar ones. Fortunately, now like the quality clients that I work with, and I'm in a position where I can pick and choose the type of clients that I work with because I don't want to be pulling rabbits out of hats at the 9th hour anymore, or the 11th hour. Trudi Cowan: It's magical. Sarah Eifermann: It's not fun for anyone. It's not fun for you as the Accounting Advisor or the Financial Planner and that's the same thing in terms of when we work with multiple advisors. If it's a specialized purchase like a self-managed super fund, it's front of mind right now, if the other advisors that they've chosen to work with don't have knowledge in that space, it becomes very complicated. When I say guys, you need to go off and these are the ones that I would recommend because they have knowledge in this space. They say I don't want to pay two sets of bills. Then we had one where the stamp duty was registered in the wrong entity name because of the complications of a super-fund structure. They potentially would have been up for double stamp duty in 40 years, but also in 30 years based on the market value of the property then, which could have been like, hundreds of 1000s of dollars, Trudi Cowan: A lot of money. Sarah Eifermann: In this instance, they were really lucky because I happened to be reviewing documents that were sent before I launched them to the lender, and when that entity type is wrong, you need to go back to this conveyancer or solicitor or wherever and get that changed. They were like, but they should know what they're doing and I'm like I told you upfront, that if they don't have a knowledge in this space, they will get it wrong. And you need to ensure that the advisors in this particular technical specialty, know what they're doing, or it will cost you a lot of money. Trudi Cowan: Next question, do you read the loan documents before you send them off to the client? To check the details are correct? I'm putting you on the spot, you know? Sarah Eifermann: No, there's a blank space here because of course I fricking do that. Trudi Cowan: Okay, well, I had a client who did actually use a broker to purchase a commercial property and before she signed the documents, the client was intelligent enough to read the documents and Sarah Eifermann: As every client should be doing because let's be honest, mistakes can be made. With lenders, they can be made sometimes we don't get mortgage documents, we only get formal approval advice and the documents go straight to you, that's your client. [crosstalk 14:11] Trudi Cowan: So she actually read through her documents before she signed it. And the bank had secured the loan not just against the commercial property that she was buying but also against her home and investment properties which were not ever part of the arrangement of the plan. And in fact, they were intending on selling one of those investment properties. Hadn't she read the documents then rang me, I'm not sure she should ring me as to the broker, but rang me and said, Does this seem right? And I said, Well, no, not if that's not what the agreement with the bank was. Go back to the bank and tell them this needs to change. Sarah Eifermann: Here's the thing, though in commercial space when you have investment properties and you're the director giving a personal guarantee, especially depending on what entity type you're buying, and it is Standard Bank practice to take all security. Took it all off at home [crosstalk 15:02]. Sarah Eifermann: I had this conversation about another client recently with a business banker, we only needed one property that was worth a million dollars, they owed $400,000, and we wanted to put a small overdraft of 50k secured to that property. And she's like, Oh, we're going to take these properties as well. And I went, No, no, you're not. She's like why? And I said because none of my client's properties are collateralized unless there's a very specific reason. In this instance, the client may want to sell one of these properties in the future. And we're not going through the rigmarole of a new credit application because you've decided now to take much more security than you're entitled to and didn't need. She was like, well, the bank won't like that. I said, Does the bank want the lending or not? I could go elsewhere. Trudi Cowan: Yes, pretty much what this client did. She went back and said, No, you can have the commercial property security, but that's it. You're not getting our home and you're definitely not getting the investment property, because we're planning on selling it. And so it was a good thing that she had read and gotten that change because had she signed it, as she say, she would then had to refinance everything to sell the property, which I think happened only sort of three or four months later. Sarah Eifermann: That's right, it would have been an additional cost for her. It's not always I mean, to be honest though, but always stops with you. Responsibility starts with you never sign anything you don't read. Very simple, start there. But yeah, sometimes mistakes are made and they aren't picked up on. But yes, we always try and read what is being sent out before it gets sent out. Sometimes the information is not actually on it for us as brokers but you've got some case studies above. Trudi Cowan: I've got another example. I want to give us a difference between coming and speaking to me and getting advice and not coming and speaking to me to get the advice until it was too late. So I had two clients last year who sold investment properties. The first client rang me well, before the end of the financial year and said we're selling the property, can we do a bit of an estimate of what the capital gain on the property is going to be? And what's our tax going to look like? So I went out, we did an estimate, it wasn't a perfect help, they didn't have all the information ready but we're able to do a bit of an estimate to give them an idea because I knew it was going to be a big game that held the property for a long time, gone up in value for quite a bit. Trudi Cowan: But having that conversation allowed us to see what the game was going to look like, an estimate of what their total taxable income was going to be once they factored in wages and things like that. Then allowed us to also have the conversation with him about if you can find these other documents, we can probably reduce that game. So they then had time to go away and dig through their records and their files and not be scrambling at tax time but we also were able to have a conversation around what are you going to do with the proceeds of that property? She was about to retire, they wanted more money in their super. So we're able to look at the limits of how much she could contribute to super and claim a tax deduction for and what impact was that going to have on the tax, that she was going to have to pay. Sarah Eifermann: That would have been payable had they not done that. Trudi Cowan: So we're able to sit down, have that conversation, and work at one, know how much money they had to put away to pay for the tax. But two, they have some advice around, you can reduce it by making the superannuation conversation set contribution. They went away to have a conversation with both their super fund and their financial advisor to confirm that was an appropriate thing for them to do. Ultimately, one meeting, I think it was only an hour or an hour and a half probably saved them 1000s in tax. Sarah Eifermann: 1000s in tax Trudi Cowan: Because they were able to put this in place prior to 30g and therefore had this tax benefit versus another client that sold two investment properties within one financial year. I never recommend that unless you absolutely have to, because it's going to put your income through the roof. Assuming you've got properties that have gone up in value in your current environment in Australia. If you've got properties, they've gone up in value. They sold them, I didn't find out until I went to do their tax return that they'd sold these properties, very large capital gains on very large amounts of tax. I then found out that the second property that they sold, they only signed the contract for in June. So just before the financial year-end, it was a private sale to their tenant. So they could have actually pushed that back by a matter of weeks. Push the second property sale into the next financial year. And it would have had a very different impact on their tax. Sarah Eifermann: I've had stuff like that before if they just asked me questions like about fixed-rate expiry. So they sold a property and if they'd literally made the settlement date, two weeks later, they wouldn't have paid the 10 Grand break fee on the fixed rate that they'd fixed and I was like, why didn't you just ring me and say Hey Sarah we had a fixed rate on this. I'm pretty sure what's the expiry date and I would have said the expiry date is this. Are you selling? Yes. Make sure that settlement goes in after that date. Trudi Cowan: Two very simple examples. But you know, for the sake of a consultation, which I think for a first client probably was only $250, we're not talking a lot of money. No, that's the thing, it made a big impact on their ultimate tax position and how much cash they were able to retain from those property sales. Sarah Eifermann: Trudi is a very reasonable price,[inaudible 20:21] FYI and it makes a massive difference. Trudi Cowan: Even if it costs you 500 or $1,000, it still would have been worth that money. Sarah Eifermann: Well, because of the value of tax saving like this, people don't think ahead, we're still back at planning, everybody. Sorry.Forecasting and planning and thinking about the future, and how that will then impact the decisions that you make now. And I know that not everybody lives in that space, I really do get it. But at the same time, a little bit of foresight about the consequences of actions will really change up your entire life position and what it bloody costs you in money, especially in tax, no one likes paying tax. Trudi Cowan: And look, we're obviously focusing on financing in sort of tax accounting examples, because that's what we do but I'm sure if you had a chat with your friendly employment lawyer, they would tell you about a situation where someone didn't put an employment contract in place or didn't put the right clause in the employment contract because they didn't want to spend the money to get it reviewed and took it off the shelf. Sarah Eifermann: Correct. That literally took the example out of my mouth, from the ones that I've had with my own business advisory clients is that paying for advice upfront, saves you so much time and energy later? And that goes with your terms and conditions on your website? If you are selling an e-commerce product to have one e-commerce sorry, selling a product with an e-commerce site? What are your refund terms? Like pay someone, get them custom-designed for your needs. Trudi Cowan: Yes, they are off-the-shelf approaches but the reason that they're off the shelf is because they're not customized. You all offer very customized individual products and services. So why are your unique circumstance? Why shouldn't your advice also be customized to you, and what you and your business need, because ultimately, that's what's going to protect you and save you money in the long term. Sarah Eifermann: I'll give you another example of clients that didn't get advice. It was specifically around insurance. I had a roof plumbing company that had come to me for business advice and we were looking at their lending structures. They originally came to me to buy a commercial property for a factory to lease for their business in their trading. And I was like, you need to get some professional advice on structures because that is not wise. It sort of evolved from that and then further in business advice and mentoring came about of that. I had said to them about the insurance. I said you guys, have you done a review of your insurances? Are you using a broker? And they were like, No, we just went to UE to get our public liability insurance. And I went, okay, because he'd been a sole trader. And he just went and got insurance when he started great because a lot of people don't. Their turnover was $2 million, and their public liability insurance was insured for a turnover of $100,000. Trudi Cowan: That's not quite enough. Every time my insurance comes up for renewal, my broker's asking me, what was your turnover last year? That's why right? Have you taken on any new employees or you're offering any new services or doing anything different that I need to be aware of? I'm able to go back to her with we started a podcast this year. I've taken on an employee this year, and she can come back to me with Well, that doesn't change your insurance. Yes. [inaudible 23:44] Does it here? Yes, I've got to have certain levels of insurance as part of my profession. And they are other industries that require you to have certain levels of insurance so it's important to make sure that you're getting that as well. Sarah Eifermann: I think what we're saying is the right advice because it's not always about things going wrong, and being too late. We're really talking about getting the right advice to prevent what happens in the future, which is why we're big advocates of tax planning. That is exactly what tax planning is. It's future planning advice to ensure that you don't wait until it's too late to buy that new asset or sell that good piece of equipment or do whatever you have to. Trudi Cowan: Something as simple as making that superannuation payment for that 30 June, deadline date. 30 of June is big for accountants, you know, you want to put your plans in place, or have your plan in place before 30 June you may not, it may be something that we say don't do it until July. Sarah Eifermann: Which has happened. Make a payment [inaudible 24:43] don't make the super payment this year. You actually need to make it next year because you've sold some clients and next year is actually going to be a better year for you to look for deductions than this year. Like there's heaps of stuff that comes across it. Have you got another example? I think there's one more example, you really like to share. Trudi Cowan: I have actually got one more example on there, which is around a client that purchased an investment property, and spent six months doing some repairs on it. I didn't actually put the investment property up to be available for reps. Well, the way the rules work, is you can't claim any of those holding costs until the property is available to be rented. Basically, he spent six months doing these repairs and delaying things and little COVID came into play as well, it delayed things a little bit, circumstances. When it comes to his tax return he's lost out on six months worth of deductions, which includes about 20 grand of interest deductions. Trudi Cowan: Whereas if we had a conversation about the fact that you're buying this property, and you want to do some work to it, we could have at least had the conversation to where you need to get the work done as quick as possible because you want to get it on the market and start to advertise it so that we can then be saying it's available for rent, and we can start to claim some of these deductions and the works that were done, were not hugely significant. So the question may also have been well, do they actually need to be done before a tenant goes in? Or are there just things that you'd like to do, to the property? But you know, just having had that conversation, we could have come up with a better plan or if not a better plan, at least understood the consequences of delaying the property being available for rent. So that he didn't come to tax thinking I'm getting all these wonderful deductions when in fact, he's not. Sarah Eifermann: Perfect example of that, as we know I have a property in Melbourne that is about to become a rental property, and it needs a new floor and I rang you and said, If I get the floor on now before it's tenanted can I claim and you were like, No. And I was like, yes. Okay but if I put a tenant in there, and it's very disruptive for a tenant, that's not going to work. Alright, what are my choices? Do I leave the floor? Do I do the floor in the end, I decided to do the floor. And I'll get a depreciation schedule done to assist with that and the cost of what's claimable within the property, but pick up the telephone Trudi Cowan: And allowed you to make an informed decision about what was the best way for you to proceed? Sarah Eifermann: Absolutely. Trudi Cowan: And that means that when we come to do your tax, you're not going to be surprised by the results. Sarah Eifermann: That's the idea Trudi Cowan: Nobody likes surprises, especially I know when it comes to tax. Sarah Eifermann: I won't be surprised, but I might not be happy about it. So I mean, I suppose the thing is, is that guys if you don't feel that you have advisors that you can trust to pick up the phone and call them, you need new ones. If you don't know where to go to find them, start maybe asking your friends if they have a trusted advisor that they use. Ring us, we'll tell you who we use. I mean, some of them have been guests on our podcast already. You can ask in a local Facebook group, often check Google reviews. But ultimately, it's going to come down to you building a relationship with that person and finding out whether you trust them, whether you feel that they understand, listen to you and have your best interests at heart. And here's the other thing, sometimes you think you know better than your advisor. Now, if your advisor tells you one thing, and you don't agree, rather than thinking, you know, better go and get a second opinion. Trudi Cowan: Yes and put it back on yourself and to your particular industry. Bricky, would you allow your accountant to come and give you advice on how to lay those bricks? That's right. If you're a plumber, would you allow your accountant to come and give you advice on how you should be doing the plumbing in their house? You wouldn't. It works exactly the same way in some way in reverse. Sarah Eifermann: Yes. 100%. This is one of those foundational pieces of having the right entity type and all of those things. They go hand in hand with having the right advisors will either make you a successful business and a less stressed business owner, or it will break your business potential, because the decisions you're making have no foresight attached to them, and end up costing you hundreds of 1000s of dollars. So on that note, we don't have any more time left for today. Next week, we're talking about succession planning and business exit strategies. So feel free to check in next week but in the meantime, if you could leave us a review on whatever app you're listening on, just either hit the four, the five stars or the thumbs up button or whatever you've got as a review option that helps bump us to the top of the podcast charts and we'd really appreciate it. Trudi Cowan: Yes, we'd love to have some more ears listening in. Sarah Eifermann: Okay, we'll see you next week. Trudi Cowan: Thanks, everyone. Bye Sarah Eifermann: Bye.———————-
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